
It is the beginning of term at Ashland and although I am not teaching Greek this year I am still hearing the question, why do I need to learn Greek or Hebrew?
Over the years I have swung between the extremes. On the one hand, I have mounted a vigorous defense of biblical languages in a seminary curriculum. On the other, I have privately wished that the only students in my Greek class were the ones that chose to be there.
The question is an important one. The modern pastor is very busy and is more of a general practitioner than a specialist. Working with languages takes time. Although we teach students Greek and Hebrew few have the time week in and week out to put in the kind of effort required to translate the chosen passage for the Sunday sermon. Most pastors do not have a large church staff if any at all. This means that they are in constant demand and are often propelled from crisis to crisis. While weddings are usually planned months in advance funerals are not. It is common for a pastor's normal week to be "interrupted " by a death in the congregation, a family that is falling apart, or some other emergency. And of course this does not include the pastor's family.
Of course there are many good translations to which the pastor will turn. In this case they may not translate their selected passage, but they have the ability to work with some quality commentaries that deal with the original languages. But this leads to the question of how much students need to study the languages to function.
One problem that I have often observed is that studetns are often better in one language than the other. Someimtes this depends on which language they took first. A student who takes Hebrew first may experience language fatigue when it comes time to take Greek next year. It is not uncommon for a student to leave seminary with more competence in one of the two languages. Rarley do they return to studying languages after seminary to improve the one in which they are deficient.
And what about the problem of the Septuagint (LXX), the Greek translation of the Old Testament? I have to admit that at times I see a disconnect between our teaching of Hebrew to Christian students who will use the New Testament. Better than 90% of the Old Testament quotations in the New Testaement come from the Greek version rather than the Hebrew. And the differences between them can be significant. If you use the Hebrew Bible, for instance, there is no virgin birth for Matthew to refer to in Isaiah. If we are reading the Bible as Christians, than why don't we read it in the language that Paul and others used which was, for the most part, Greek (LXX) rather than Hebrew.
I also wonder about what we as professors require versus what we actually practice. I am aware of many a New Testament scholar who would defend the need for students to learn Hebrew, but cannot read it themselves. I am bothered when we insist that our students be able to do something that we cannot. For the record, I have kept up on my Hebrew, but only after I was personally convicted by the above type of situation. I realized my Hebrew was slipping and concluded that if I wanted my students to read Hebrew I had better be able to read it too.
Added to all of this is the fact that many seminaries are dropping the language requirements. It is possible to get an MDiv without any Greek or Hebrew. And these courses are not being replaced with more Bible. This strategy is being used to shorten the total hours required to earn the degree. Students take 4-6 less classes and spend less money.
What are your thoughts? Are original languages important to ministry formation? Should seminaries continue to compel students to take Greek and Hebrew?
YES!!!!!!! Seminary students should be required to take both Hebrew and Greek just as they are required to take basic Hermeneutics. How can one seriously (professionally)study the Bible without at least solid exposure to the two major original languages?
ReplyDeleteI am a small church pastor, and therefore a generalist. I still do my own textual work before looking at others' and occasionally this includes Greek or more likely Hebrew (it's easier and I like it better). I have certainly not kept my studies in these languages very sharp,but it is not all gone and I know where to get help. Furthermore, there are basic understandings that I learned that help me immensely as I take advantage of the scholarly work of others. Without the training I received, I would not be able to access the more technical commentaries and would miss much depth in my study and preparation.
Not only that, but people in all the congregations I served have always asked me to give them some insight from Greek or Hebrew about some more difficult passages and I have always been able to say, "I'll take a look at that and get back with you," or "hold on, I'll get the book and we can look at it."
Keep the languages. I am not in favor of watering down the qualifications for an advanced degree. It seems to me that if the Lord has called us to this work, we ought to be able to trust the Lord for a little bit of help in Hebrew (and in funding the extra 4-6 hours).
It is amazing how people say the Bible is Gods word, yet we are told to learn Greek and Hebrew, what for? so we can correct Gods Word.
DeleteAnd what we must also remember that the so called Greek has been changed so much and still is been changed, the Bible was writen over 400 years ago, does it not stand to reason that it is right, i have heard Pastors say that this word in the Bible should be whatever, no go back to when it was writen and the meaning then, God promised to preserve his Word not ours.
I agree with everything Jim West just posted on the matter. :)
ReplyDeletePaul,
ReplyDeleteI just posted a response to him.
I have done much more with my Greek than my Hebrew since seminary. I do wish I would have kept up better on my Hebrew, and I do still purchase a Hebrew grammar here and there, but the Greek is what I deal with much more regularly.
ReplyDeleteI do believe that both should be kept up on, sprinkled with some Aramaic, but I am not sure what the best way is to go about this.
John, how do you keep up with your Hebrew? Is it general reading, grammar review, etc.?
As a pastor currently serving in a small church, regular and extensive use of biblical languages is next to impossible. John, your assessment of the average week is definitely accurate. Nonetheless, I wil be forever grateful for my gained wisdom from language study.
ReplyDeleteMy language classes were spiritually forming and shaped my understanding of the biblical world. While I am not be able to translate all that well anymore, I still have a better understanding of the worlds in which the Old and New Testament were written because of my language study. This affects how I approach Scripture and how I think about God. These two things are paramount to my work as a pastor.
Matt,
ReplyDeleteI read in the Hebrew. I spent two years reading large portions of the Hebrew Bible in Hebrew as a way to strengthen my skills. As the old saying goes, practice, practice, practice.
While it is probably true that most pastors will not continue in their particular ministries with the same proficiencies in the biblical languages they had when they were in seminary, they WILL have a key understanding and background necessary for proper biblical understanding and interpretation. I think the biblical languages requirements are CRITICAL/CRUCIAL for all MDiv programs because of the understanding that they provide ... and there are a few methods of keeping up with your biblical languages on a regular basis. One of which I am aware is that called "More Light for the Path" by Drs. David and Morvin Baker and Dr. Elaine Heath. THis is a daily devotional in English, Greek, and Hebrew with each devotion (in all three languages) taking up merely one page each. It is published by Baker Books. I am sure there are others but I am particularly fond of this one.
ReplyDeleteThe solution is to make seminary class less about writing formal research papers, less about taking classes in the soft sciences and more about reading the Bible in Greek and Hebrew and writing exegetical digests which use resources,and having professor led discussions about ministry and life implications.
ReplyDeleteNot to say that systematic theology or ministry methodology do not matter, they do. But knowing the Bible matters more.
I am not a Biblical Studies professional, but I did wander my way through a year of seminary. That brief sojourn did include three semesters of Greek. (I never got around to Hebrew.) Even that brief term of study impressed upon me the value of language study to the task of scripture interpretation. In essence, the translation of the text from the original language into English or another language IS the first interpretation of the text. The translation process forces the translator to wrestle with foundational issues in interpretation that would be missed if an English text is used. Missed because someone else already resolved them in the way they considered best. True, most issues encountered are not ones that the average Christian sitting in the pew would find interesting or even understand. So, why bother with them?
ReplyDeleteWe are considering the value of original languages to professional leaders of the faith. Those "technical issues" of language form part of the foundation of the Theology of the Christian faith. If the leaders of Christianity do not encounter those issues and resolve them, they would be in the position of Nicodemas of whom Jesus said, "You are a leader in Israel and you do not understand these things?" If a Seminary claims to train "Professional" leaders of the Christian church, it needs to require language study.
i still reject the notion that time is the issue. it isn't. i pastor a church of over 300 active members, i teach for QHST, i edit for the scandinavian journal of the OT, and i edit volumes for publication in the copenhagen seminar series. i still have time for hospital calls, blogging, sermon prep, visitation, funerals, weddings, tv watching, annoying people, making phone calls, writing letters, reading, writing book reviews, working on commentaries, publishing books, and a whole bunch of other things. and IM LAZY! so i imagine that people with drive and will could do way more. if- IF they wanted to.
ReplyDeleteas i tell church folk all the time- people have time for all the things they WANT to do. if they dont WANT to do it, their first excuse is 'i dont have time'. it's a big fat lazy lie.
Thanks for those good honest thoughts John, I have responded with another idea on my blog.
ReplyDeleteI'd love to hear more from you on the LXX question, it is something I think needs some serious thought given to it, and it relates to the relatively unexplored problem of how text critical issues relate to theology, something which tends to get brushed under the carpet!
Better than 90% of the Old Testament quotations in the New Testaement come from the Greek version rather than the Hebrew.
ReplyDeleteDr. Byron:
I believe Lee Martin McDonald gives this 90% figure in his book on The Biblical Canon (FYI - get the third edition, third printing - printings 1 and 2 had errors), but from my at-present reading of R. Timothy McLay's The Use of the Septuagint in New Testament Research (via Logos), I wonder if that might be too high. McLay gives a more nuanced and complex explanation of the ways and reasons a LXX reading (and hence a NT use of it) may seem to depart from a literalistic back-translatable Greek version of the Hebrew.
It is possible to get an MDiv without any Greek or Hebrew.
ReplyDeleteSay it isn't so!!!!
You have got to be kidding me!!!!
To the seminaries that are dropping language requirements for an MDiv--Shame on you! It sounds to me that it is not really a time/money issue as much as it is them following worldly values. "Your" time is much more important. Let's get "you," "your" degreee quicker. "You" don't really need a solid foundation in a language as "you" write "your" Sunday sermon. "You" can find all that "you" need in a good commentary of "your" choice. Get the picture?
ReplyDeleteAs a first year, first term, seminary student, I thought it would be a good idea to comment on your blog. I am taking Hebrew during this Fall 2010 term and although it is difficult, I think it's very important. During my search for a seminary to attend, I ran across several that lacked in or didn't require language(s). However, I looked away from them because I felt that learning the languages the Bible was written in seemed rather important to the foundation of my theological eduation. The Hebrew and Greek language requirements at Ashland Thelogical Seminary was one of the reason I came here!
ReplyDeleteJohn, can you provide me proof of your second last paragraph (seminaries dropping the languages)? I've heard this for some time, and as far as I can tell it is a myth, perpetuated because we assume seminaries are caving in to students whining :-) We're doing a curriculum review, and during my research into 30 seminaries of similar size, I only found one seminary that dropped the languages. About 1/4 reduced it to one language, but the majority still require Hebrew and Greek in some form. Out of curiosity what is the M.Div. requirement at Ashland? (your website doesn't have the program tracks handy. (btw, you should tell your webmaster that Ashland's website is not compatible with Safari, the 4th most used browser)
ReplyDeleteDanny,
ReplyDeleteYes, many main-line denominations are dropping the languages.A Methodist seminary just to the south of us has no language requirements. We require five quarters of Greek and Hebrew. While many Evangelical seminaries still require language, the "mainline" seminaries are dropping them as are those that are all online. Although they may not be accredited they are our "competition".
I think the author is correct and has a great point! I do agree that seminary students (as well as non-seminarians) should have exposure to Greek and Hebrew. Why should it be just for seminarians and pastors? How about teaching Hebrew and Greek in the churches for free rather than in an institution that requires a great deal of money? The American educational system is atrocious and the way Hebrew and Greek are taught in the institutions is not conducive to learning, retention, experience, joy, or practicality. Many students go through the language classes in a few semesters and are overloaded with the nuances of Hebrew and Greek without any real tangible experience in using it. Many of them forget the material only to be washed over with more material from another class. Language is better learned through immersion and not through lectures, text books, quizzes, and exams.
ReplyDeleteI actually agree with the dropping of the language requirements. Students should be required to pass proficiency tests in both languages before graduation. I see the lack of interest from seminary students in learning Greek and Hebrew. Requiring a passage of a competency test is in line with other professional degrees. My school has dropped their language requirement much to my displeasure.
ReplyDeleteSo, are you saying drop the requirement but give an exam?
ReplyDeleteI have found the language topic is normally looked at from the stance of both Heb and Greek or nothing. I would recommend a 3rd option. 2 semesters of Hebrew OR 2 semesters of Greek. Leave the decision up to the student from that point. I really am not sold on 12 hours of languages for guys that will not utilize it week in and week out. I say on of the other.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate all of these comments. However, I am a local church pastor with the time constraints you mention and I would find it very difficult to fit in enough time to spend 4-6 hours exegeting or translating the original languages.
ReplyDeleteTo say that one has enough time for what they WANT but they don't WANT to do it is awfully condescending. What about my pastor friend up the street who has a child in a wheel chair and devotes as much time to him as his wife does and to the rest of his large family? You would imply that his priorities are out of line because he doesn't spend time in the original languages?
He loves his flock and faithfully preaches / teaches similarly to the way that I do (we have talked about this before) from the very good bounty of English translations along with the use of language tools such as CWSD / Strong's / BDB / etc, reference of solid commentaries, and contextual research.
I think you can get the job done without in-depth knowledge of the languages. Although I do think that one needs at least 1 introductory course in Hebrew and Greek to gain insight into them. It's interesting that I was actually less likely to cite the Greek or Hebrew in a sermon after just one course in each!
I have been a pastor since 1986, and while I appreciate some of the comments on this board pertaining to the biblical languages, I don't appreciate the condescending tone of some of them. Everyone is in a different situation when it comes to ministry. To say someone is lazy or lying about having the time to study the Greek and Hebrew is just ignorant. And by the way, just because you are a student of both or either language doesn't qualify you to be a good preacher. Preaching is a gift from God, and there are plenty of biblical language scholars who shouldn't be up on the pulpit, because they don't have the gift of preaching.
ReplyDeleteI am also in agreement that seminaries shouldn't drop the language requirements, but maybe they should screen applicants a little better to keep out those who think they are smarter or better than others.
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ReplyDelete''If you use the Hebrew Bible, for instance, there is no virgin birth for Matthew to refer to in Isaiah.''
ReplyDeleteQuotation above is a common misunderstanding. Only source for Hebrew of the Bible is the Biblical Hebrew itself because there are only few other sources outside of it to find out what the words of the Hebrew Bible mean. For this reason you need to make your own mind what Isiaiah 7:14 is by comparing those few similar words in the Hebrew Bible in their contex. Later Jewish use or propaganda is not enough. Final result is that Isiaiah 7:14 speaks about virgin.
Alma= young woman. The whole verse is contextually about Ahaz' day so if one is willing, perhaps this is a non-holy Spirit virgin birth??
DeleteThe OG translators used the Hebrew Bible and found that in Greek it was to be translated παρθενος and those translators were Jewish. Handy to know both translations if you are dealing with theology.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if med school profs ponder dropping anatomy from their courses? How many of you would like a physician working on you who skipped the 'optional' anantomy class.
I didn't make it all the way to a pastor and the area I have particular intetest in actually forced me back into Greek! (Messianic views: the NT is a renewal of the OT; false use of the word kainos when if the NT was a renewal, anakainidzo would have been used.)
ReplyDeleteAs online translators become more and more accurate, I think the need to learn the languages diminishes. The languages remain very important. Martin Luther once said "We shall have a hard time preserving the Gospel without the languages." However, because of better and better technology, the importance of actually learning the languages diminishes. Why spend several semesters mastering a dead language when you could use the gifts of technology that God has given us to translate the texts. Additionally, you may see more young men chose to enter a pastoral vocation if the languages were no longer required.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comments. I am curious about your last line. Do you really see languages as preventing men and women from entering ministry? Not all degrees require them so there are options other than one requiring languages.
Delete"I wonder if med school profs ponder dropping anatomy from their courses? How many of you would like a physician working on you who skipped the 'optional' anantomy class."
ReplyDeleteNot a valid analogy. The NT and OT patriarchs used the languages of their day for communication. As the gospel spread throughout the Gentile world, there was no mandate (from the apostles or God) to learn Hebrew (and by extension in our day, Greek) to be an effective preacher/teacher/bishop for the church. Anatomy in med school is the "domain model" that is inherently cross-cultural and unchanging. Language and cultures morph over time and have a need to be dealt with in a culturally connective form.
I'm not saying the language requirements should be dropped, but so far the arguments presented (and this analogy in particular) haven't given credence to keeping it.
Students do not need to study Greek and Hebrew to understand it! It must be spiritually discerned. The majority of people that have impacted the world for Christ were simple, uneducated people who spent a lot of time in their prayer closet and less time doing things that are legitimate but keep you out of fellowship with God! Look at America today! A demon-possessed society where sodomites abound, even in the church! This is the spirit of blasphemy (Revelation 13:1-2). The church in America needs to repent of her worldliness and backslid-den shepherds who are more concerned about themselves and their retirement than lost souls! Todd Humphreys S.T.M. Nova, Ohio
ReplyDeleteAs a church member I have been blessed when a pastor digs deeper and shares about the Greek or Hebrew meaning of a verse. The few times I've witnessed to cultists, the Strong's Concordance has shed light I could not have known without it. I think millions of church goers may have stayed with the church and the truth of God's word if they had been taught deeper theology. In these days filled with so much deception, maybe it's even more imperative that we more fully arm the church with the truth? As well, as a long time believer, some of the Bible has become dull. Greek and Hebrew breathe new life into the verses...or rather into me.
ReplyDelete